Some time ago (I can't find the reference), folks caught up in the Serb/Croat conflict spent long periods of time with no power. It was devastating, but one fellow wrote a long description of the experience, and two of his conclusions stuck with me --
1. People who could fix *things* or fix *people* survived and did just fine. If you could do repairs or act as a medic, you were in okay shape.
2. His most valuable 'currency' was common little plastic "Bic" cigarette lighters. Everyone needed to make fires to keep warm, and these things were cheap enough to buy and store indefinitely. Gold and silver were worth little, but those lighters were precious.
Since then, I've heard others speculate that ammunition would also be valuable as a trading commodity. For example, 9mm pistol rounds last for decades, are small and portable, and could be traded for food or other needs. And if one has a pistol to put them in(!), they could save or protect lives.
That's just a couple random thoughts -- and there is a mountain of material and a whole 'prepper' culture on the internet that one can look to ...
I’m pleased to say that I have attended many meetings over the past few years, held by various grassroots groups, wherein topics like the ones you present have been discussed.
One such group has already created an online platform from scratch, that facilitatesthe trade and barter between local and like-minded businesses. Some others have built private schools from the ground-up, with a focus on holistic education, instead of indoctrination. Yet another group created a barter coin. I even narrated the animated video for it that was presented to attendees. (Thing is, one man controlling the barter dollar just recreates the problem of a centralized currency.)
The trucker convoy really kicked the asses of many Canadians into solution-mode when we realized we may be “booted from society” or have our bank accounts frozen for simply wanting to be responsible for ourselves!
I think it’s going to be about living in way smaller communities wherein we intuit fair value for the products/time/skills/knowledge we have to offer, exchanging them with verbal contracts that we honour with our integrity and trust. Quite like I imagine exchanges take place within families.
“Damnit Jim, I’m a philosopher, not a businessman.”
Damnit, Chris, I’m a musician, not a businessman.” 🤣
It all plots on the bell curve. 62.5% will not say the truth to the de facto. Yes sir; no sir ! 3 bags full Sir. on the left, 12 to 15% are too stupid to qualify to join the military. 16.25% on the right are smart enough to figure it out but will not take action; 3 to 5% on the left control the stupid et al. evil and those that acquiesce to evil ; On the right 3 to 5% of us will return all of us to a Constitutional republican form of government this year 2024. A solution that works is published at www.orsja.org. Very few will go Athens, Tennessee 1946. The de facto yields to the de jure when the fraud of deception is clear. The occupant of the office will take a proper oath to the de jure Constitutions with God included no exceptions.
There has to be money. It's the only leveler - it allows unpopular people, ugly people, and strangers, to have the same purchasing power as relatives and neighbours. The idea of barter town organisers setting the cash value of contributed goods sounds nice, but once again the unpopular and the out-of-towners will find their goods undervalued. You can argue against most functions of the state being irreducible, but setting the value of currency is a difficult matter to do at a local level
In a small community a common interest of survival would probably suffice for short periods of time. Think natural disasters, no barter needed. Everyone just pitches in. In a truly apocalyptic scenario that’s where you’d be. There’s strength in numbers as assets and skill sets multiply.
I think we’re much better served using history as an example. Serbia was wartime, supplies flowed from outside for free. That’s why gold and silver didn’t matter. North America is much more likely to be hyperinflation, resulting in civil unrest (and its politicization), resulting in supply chain disruptions. We should probably look to the fall of the Soviet Union, post WW1 Germany and more recently, Venezuela for examples. Communities, with guns, gold and groceries will win the day here. The real outlier in the United States will be in how many foreign armies have crossed the Rio Grande?
Your question is somewhat like the query, "Who would build the roads?" or take over any of the myriad of services now performed (poorly) by government, if we fired the government from its role in them. The answer includes "I don't know" without shame because while we can be quite certain that the needs will be met by clever, creative, hard-working people, we can't predict in advance exactly how they'll unfold.
Similarly, the question, "What would be money?" would or will be creatively solved when/if the need arises. Romans used salt. WWII soldiers used packs of cigarettes. It would not surprise me, when things turn sour, if cigarette LIGHTERS become a medium of exchange. Or a thousand or a million other things.
Not to denigrate trying to guess now: a good guesser might salt away useful, non-perishable things and suddenly find himself "wealthy" when things go bad.
I have been thinking about this topic since 1991. Wendy McElroy recommended a book in the second month of 1996 that I think will help you. Written and published by Josiah Warren in 1852 it focuses on the kinds of things that you can do even without as much technology, which might be scarce.
Matches, candles and batteries are good barter items. Easily portable, affordable and in high demand. Precious metals are a way to preserve wealth, but aren't practical to buy food. Although I know a man who was able to buy an entire mountain in Pennsylvania during the depression for a single gold coin. (I prep for everything I can think of, and then forget about it.)
Excellent article. I've never seen Mad Max; not my genre, but guess I better bite the bullet. (Thankfully I have several.)
My husband and I are in our late 70s, but luckily not in bad shape, but we're not able to do many things that were easy a few years ago. It's a scary prospect, but one I'm not going to fret about too much. No one lives forever.
We have made a relationship with a local farmer. In fact, I may send them this article. Hopefully, they will still be our friends if the SHTF. Plus we try to keep a large quantity of food, rotating and replacing. And lots of other non perishable items. The lighter shortage will be rectified. Batteries are handy as well as flashlights. Fishing hooks and monofilament line are very useful for creating barricades; use your imagination. Boards with long screws too.
My question: how do you define this new social order on earth? I am assuming that we no longer have organized government. Do we or do we not have electricity? Do we or do we not have computers?
If we have electricity and computers, the markets are already in the process of proving an answer - cryptocurrency. To a certain extent crypto is a new concept, but it is an evolving method of legitimate payment. It would obviate the need for a barter economy. If we feel that we can trust the value of our currency, that would be key to resumption of economic activity and civil society.
If we don't have computers and electricity, then we could very well be reliant on a barter economy. That will be to our detriment and our ability to restart civil society.
Trust in institutions is difficult to build or rebuild. If I read your writing correctly, that trust is under legitimate threat.
If institutions are torn down, rebuilding or replacing will be required. It will be hard work and could take a long time.
My first take is that it's premature to try to create a currency when you are barely at the stage of being able to organise a small town and keep it stable. There is a reason these things emerge incrementally over centuries. Stick with batter. There are bigger problems to worry about in your scenario. It's a very interesting thought experiment though.
It’s an interesting question. After a catastrophic event, it would probably take people a long time before they would be capable of the amount of trust necessary to adopt any system of currency.
This leaves bartering. The only system of ‘complex bartering’ I can think of is one in which the person performing a long-term service is given the goods that he asks for throughout the duration of the service. So, the guy building the house would get an egg a day until the house is complete, and the guy with the generator gets an egg for every day someone uses his power.
Of course, there’s problems here, too—and they’re the same problems we see now. How, for example, do we stop the guy with the generator (or something else irreplaceable that everyone wants/needs) from setting absurd terms?
I think the best option is to pool larger resources in groupings of up to 12 adults. Everyone contributes what they currently have to the entirety of their group. Tribal living. The larger items become community property. And the smaller become each person's contribution. I think about this kind of community living all the time. We weren't meant to go it alone. I believe that if we move toward this tribal model soon, we will actually head off any apocalyptic event.
Some time ago (I can't find the reference), folks caught up in the Serb/Croat conflict spent long periods of time with no power. It was devastating, but one fellow wrote a long description of the experience, and two of his conclusions stuck with me --
1. People who could fix *things* or fix *people* survived and did just fine. If you could do repairs or act as a medic, you were in okay shape.
2. His most valuable 'currency' was common little plastic "Bic" cigarette lighters. Everyone needed to make fires to keep warm, and these things were cheap enough to buy and store indefinitely. Gold and silver were worth little, but those lighters were precious.
Since then, I've heard others speculate that ammunition would also be valuable as a trading commodity. For example, 9mm pistol rounds last for decades, are small and portable, and could be traded for food or other needs. And if one has a pistol to put them in(!), they could save or protect lives.
That's just a couple random thoughts -- and there is a mountain of material and a whole 'prepper' culture on the internet that one can look to ...
Interesting topic ...
I’m pleased to say that I have attended many meetings over the past few years, held by various grassroots groups, wherein topics like the ones you present have been discussed.
One such group has already created an online platform from scratch, that facilitatesthe trade and barter between local and like-minded businesses. Some others have built private schools from the ground-up, with a focus on holistic education, instead of indoctrination. Yet another group created a barter coin. I even narrated the animated video for it that was presented to attendees. (Thing is, one man controlling the barter dollar just recreates the problem of a centralized currency.)
The trucker convoy really kicked the asses of many Canadians into solution-mode when we realized we may be “booted from society” or have our bank accounts frozen for simply wanting to be responsible for ourselves!
I think it’s going to be about living in way smaller communities wherein we intuit fair value for the products/time/skills/knowledge we have to offer, exchanging them with verbal contracts that we honour with our integrity and trust. Quite like I imagine exchanges take place within families.
“Damnit Jim, I’m a philosopher, not a businessman.”
Damnit, Chris, I’m a musician, not a businessman.” 🤣
It all plots on the bell curve. 62.5% will not say the truth to the de facto. Yes sir; no sir ! 3 bags full Sir. on the left, 12 to 15% are too stupid to qualify to join the military. 16.25% on the right are smart enough to figure it out but will not take action; 3 to 5% on the left control the stupid et al. evil and those that acquiesce to evil ; On the right 3 to 5% of us will return all of us to a Constitutional republican form of government this year 2024. A solution that works is published at www.orsja.org. Very few will go Athens, Tennessee 1946. The de facto yields to the de jure when the fraud of deception is clear. The occupant of the office will take a proper oath to the de jure Constitutions with God included no exceptions.
There has to be money. It's the only leveler - it allows unpopular people, ugly people, and strangers, to have the same purchasing power as relatives and neighbours. The idea of barter town organisers setting the cash value of contributed goods sounds nice, but once again the unpopular and the out-of-towners will find their goods undervalued. You can argue against most functions of the state being irreducible, but setting the value of currency is a difficult matter to do at a local level
In a small community a common interest of survival would probably suffice for short periods of time. Think natural disasters, no barter needed. Everyone just pitches in. In a truly apocalyptic scenario that’s where you’d be. There’s strength in numbers as assets and skill sets multiply.
I think we’re much better served using history as an example. Serbia was wartime, supplies flowed from outside for free. That’s why gold and silver didn’t matter. North America is much more likely to be hyperinflation, resulting in civil unrest (and its politicization), resulting in supply chain disruptions. We should probably look to the fall of the Soviet Union, post WW1 Germany and more recently, Venezuela for examples. Communities, with guns, gold and groceries will win the day here. The real outlier in the United States will be in how many foreign armies have crossed the Rio Grande?
Your question is somewhat like the query, "Who would build the roads?" or take over any of the myriad of services now performed (poorly) by government, if we fired the government from its role in them. The answer includes "I don't know" without shame because while we can be quite certain that the needs will be met by clever, creative, hard-working people, we can't predict in advance exactly how they'll unfold.
Similarly, the question, "What would be money?" would or will be creatively solved when/if the need arises. Romans used salt. WWII soldiers used packs of cigarettes. It would not surprise me, when things turn sour, if cigarette LIGHTERS become a medium of exchange. Or a thousand or a million other things.
Not to denigrate trying to guess now: a good guesser might salt away useful, non-perishable things and suddenly find himself "wealthy" when things go bad.
Somewhere yesterday someone said we should all start planting potatoes NOW .. (I say sweet potato & yams.. much healthier).
This way when things go to 💩.
We can trade & eat with potatoes 🥔
I’m sorry I can’t remember which Substack writer came up with this recently..
I have been thinking about this topic since 1991. Wendy McElroy recommended a book in the second month of 1996 that I think will help you. Written and published by Josiah Warren in 1852 it focuses on the kinds of things that you can do even without as much technology, which might be scarce.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/josiah-warren-equitable-commerce
We have a generator. 🤷♀️
I miss bartering
Matches, candles and batteries are good barter items. Easily portable, affordable and in high demand. Precious metals are a way to preserve wealth, but aren't practical to buy food. Although I know a man who was able to buy an entire mountain in Pennsylvania during the depression for a single gold coin. (I prep for everything I can think of, and then forget about it.)
Excellent article. I've never seen Mad Max; not my genre, but guess I better bite the bullet. (Thankfully I have several.)
My husband and I are in our late 70s, but luckily not in bad shape, but we're not able to do many things that were easy a few years ago. It's a scary prospect, but one I'm not going to fret about too much. No one lives forever.
We have made a relationship with a local farmer. In fact, I may send them this article. Hopefully, they will still be our friends if the SHTF. Plus we try to keep a large quantity of food, rotating and replacing. And lots of other non perishable items. The lighter shortage will be rectified. Batteries are handy as well as flashlights. Fishing hooks and monofilament line are very useful for creating barricades; use your imagination. Boards with long screws too.
Anyone have ideas for us "useless eaters"?
My question: how do you define this new social order on earth? I am assuming that we no longer have organized government. Do we or do we not have electricity? Do we or do we not have computers?
If we have electricity and computers, the markets are already in the process of proving an answer - cryptocurrency. To a certain extent crypto is a new concept, but it is an evolving method of legitimate payment. It would obviate the need for a barter economy. If we feel that we can trust the value of our currency, that would be key to resumption of economic activity and civil society.
If we don't have computers and electricity, then we could very well be reliant on a barter economy. That will be to our detriment and our ability to restart civil society.
Trust in institutions is difficult to build or rebuild. If I read your writing correctly, that trust is under legitimate threat.
If institutions are torn down, rebuilding or replacing will be required. It will be hard work and could take a long time.
My first take is that it's premature to try to create a currency when you are barely at the stage of being able to organise a small town and keep it stable. There is a reason these things emerge incrementally over centuries. Stick with batter. There are bigger problems to worry about in your scenario. It's a very interesting thought experiment though.
It’s an interesting question. After a catastrophic event, it would probably take people a long time before they would be capable of the amount of trust necessary to adopt any system of currency.
This leaves bartering. The only system of ‘complex bartering’ I can think of is one in which the person performing a long-term service is given the goods that he asks for throughout the duration of the service. So, the guy building the house would get an egg a day until the house is complete, and the guy with the generator gets an egg for every day someone uses his power.
Of course, there’s problems here, too—and they’re the same problems we see now. How, for example, do we stop the guy with the generator (or something else irreplaceable that everyone wants/needs) from setting absurd terms?
I think the best option is to pool larger resources in groupings of up to 12 adults. Everyone contributes what they currently have to the entirety of their group. Tribal living. The larger items become community property. And the smaller become each person's contribution. I think about this kind of community living all the time. We weren't meant to go it alone. I believe that if we move toward this tribal model soon, we will actually head off any apocalyptic event.