I just wrote a personal interpretation of Romans 13, as I got tired of hearing others taking it out of context.
Benjamin Franklin famously suggested using the following motto to be used for the Seal of the United States of America.
“Disobedience to tyrants is obedience to God”. ~ Benjamin Franklin
When the governing authority ceases to do good, they cease to be an authority. He didn’t make this up. He got this from the early church fathers, e.g. St. Thomas Aquanis.
“Human law is law only by virtue of its accordance with right reason; and thus it is manifest that it flows from the eternal law. And in so far as it deviates from right reason it is called an unjust law; in such case it is no law at all, but rather a species of violence.” ~ St. Thomas Aquinas
Or to put it simply, “Unjust law is no law at all”
Christopher, landmines, indeed. I will not tread on all this tinder, tonight. I will say, however, as a woman of God and follower of Jesus Christ, after spending 35 long years of sorrowful wandering away from my Christian roots, my own way certainly led into ditches and sloughs. Not fun, not profitable, not healthy, not remotely "sexy" or cool. I have learned the hard way, to simply sit down on the couch with God, pour out my soul and sorrows just as King David did in the Psalms and ASK for help. God is not a "thug" , He does not seek slaves, He does not want abject idiots. He leads, He washes, He chastens, He guides, He corrects, He forgives, He transforms raw and rebellious humans into His sons and daughters. Look at what Jesus Christ endured for all of us?? Romans all the way through is a difficult and intense book. Apostle Paul was a very blunt guy, trained to be a Pharisee and then had an encounter with Christ and was changed into the Apostle to the Gentiles, what a change only God could make. As a blunt Oregon girl (who lives in California), I came from extremely rowdy and rebellious roots, was agnostic and ran from God. Only His mercy brought me back, as I was headed for hell, no way around it. Grateful beyond measure to be back in the Household of God. I have no inerrant answers for all, but only to "sit down on the couch in your spirit and talk to God." Do this day by day by day and see what slowly begins to happen. It happened to me, questions are slowly-slowly-slowly beginning to be answered and I also have Eternity with Him and His Son and all the gang in Glory. I look forward to that day. Current perfection is not needed, only willingness to humble ourself and seek God. He won't hit you with a stick!
While I'm not an historian nor theologian, I know enough about religion and the Bible to unequivocally state a few things.
And let me add that I was raised Roman-Catholic, attended Parochial schools, and came from a very religious family.
1) Not one piece of the New Testament was written by an eye-witness to "Jesus'" life. Not surprising, since "Jesus" is a composite figure constructed out of the stories of various individuals to be the centerpiece of this religious text.
2) Out of the thousands of texts that 'could have' been included in the Bible, the ones that were included were cherry-picked to establish two things:
a) Jesus, the composite figure, was not an ordinary man, but was the 'Son of God'.
b) That the religious 'authorities' were chosen by God to rule over man using their interpretation of these texts.
3) The "Gospel of Matthew" is a forgery, having been discovered to be quite suitable for the previously mentioned purposes.
Now, one of the things that we are all addressing to as part of the Shift in Consciousness is the idea of 'Authority.' And I will also unequivocally state:
YOU ARE YOUR OWN AUTHORITY!!!
A cohesive, self-aware, uncompartmentalized individual is completely capable of determining what is and what is NOT best for them.
Mankind is not 'based.'
Mankind is not slumming it as opposed to so-called higher-dimensional beings.
People generally are afraid to be and express as themselves because they believe that without outside rules and authorities they will become stark-raving madmen and demons. This is because they don't trust their own instincts and have been taught that they cannot as self-empowerment is corrupting.
What we do not understand is that a cohesive, self-aware individual is automatically integral, meaning 'with integrity.'
At this point, people who believe otherwise of themselves still have a lot of work to do. They don't know themselves. They are afraid of themselves.
Let me also state that I do believe in a form of God. But it is not the God of our religious texts. There IS an energy at work that is the basis for all things, including us, and it is 'good.' Unfortunately, when people become self-aware enough to reject the religious aspects of our world, they often then replace religion with Science as the new religion, and lose sight of the aspect of our world - our lives as magical. Then life loses all meaning, and becomes a purely random set of circumstances.
So a belief in something bigger is not completely corrupted. It is calling us back to ourselves. Back to the Remembrance of ourselves as Essence, which is what we ARE -- Conscious Units of God-stuff.
This is what the Shift in Consciousness is.
It takes a lot of work to discover ourselves and free ourselves from our illusions. WE instituted this Shift because it's time. It WILL be glorious.
Church and State has been a disaster for the people and within Church is Synagogue, Temple etc.
I have read the Bible 3 times cover to cover, which most priests and preachers will tell you not to do (because it exposes much of the plot), and I am a Heretic Gnostic. Decades ago I found that I don't accept most anything Paul wrote. Most Christians believe he is an Apostle-he was NOT. He was a hired Assassin, with his gang, by the Pharisees to murder Jesus and his Apostles. He later hijacked "True Christianity" with his Pharisee and certain High Roman Aristocracy.
Notice how he focuses on OUR MASTERS, PAYING TAXES, SLAVES TREMBLING BEFORE THEIR MASTERS, WOMEN BEING VIRTUAL SLAVES TO THEIR MASTER HUSBANDS. PAUL IS A SLAVE MASTER.
I later learned The Jefferson Bible, Thomas Jefferson's, he tore out everything Paul wrote. BTW: Jefferson's first Draft of The Declaration of Independence included freeing the slaves and making slavery illegal but the Rich Southern Congressmen and their Northern Partners would not accept it and Jefferson had to go with the watered down version to free America from British rule.
This transitional moment has caused me to immersed in Bonhoeffer and looking to those who struggled with the same thoughts some of us are having now… I subscribe to something called the Daily 15 scripture verse and low and behold- todays word was about transition: “Most of us are aware that the things we did in the last season no longer work, but we haven’t yet figured out what to do in the season we’re heading into.
We would do well to heed the Lord’s encouragement to Joshua, rather than trying to wiggle our way out of this uncomfortable transition. We must wake up and take seriously what is happening around us.
Evil forces are threatening to destroy our country, and we cannot afford to sit idly by as we try to ignore our discomfort and go on with “life as usual.”
There is no more life as usual—that’s the point. But God has great plans for us, just as He had for Joshua and the Israelites.
Israel had tried for years to cross into the Promised Land. After many years of walking around the desert with Moses, they still hadn’t gotten there. Their hearts weren’t ready for what God had for them. But when God raised up Joshua to lead them, Joshua became the power relationship that Israel needed to get them through the transition and into their promise.
When they got into agreement with the right guy, they were able to cross over into the Promised Land! This same principle also rings true for us—we cannot pass through transition and into the new season unless we have the right connection. When we are aligned with “the right guy,” the one who is our power relationship—in our case, Jesus—we are well able to cross over into what God has for us!”
America was created with the support and promise of God and lives dependent on God. I’ve felt for some time there are those among us being stripped and refined and an awakening is coming of a spiritual nature.
Being Gen X I saw the apostasy of the boomers in my life- selfish spoiled desires ruled them… I saw the disfunction yet solid based behaviors of the greatest generation who wanted their boomer children to have a world safe and full of prosperity. I now see millennials and Zs search and fill their void with everything but God. I believe God will move and burn out any indecision and unbelief for those generations only if others unite with Christ and seek him in repentance for our country and our own sins. We have been decadent for far too long. What matters will reveal itself and that takes suffering and humility of the church to accomplish. Prosperity doctrine churches and false ideologies can’t stand in time if transitions- they are not solid to build on and it will show.
Too many friends have destroyed families, too many in the church are asleep but there is always always a remnant who search and kneel. What we thought mattered America is going away and what really matters is coming.
We're all worthless sinners bro. Heathens but yet more because we have our higher thinking selves to attune to what makes us sick ie sin. I look at Romans as the when in Rome then you render to Ceaser. As you go further it talks about a new heaven and a new Earth. I have my own thoughts on this. You have you own conscience and believe what you will so please don't think I'm being preachy, but I think it's why Paul talks about putting on the full armor of God so that we are ready to meet whatever crosses our path come what may. I will say the passive aquesiance as a nation is why we got here. The contract between govt and people is broken. They nullified it. We the people need to collect with interest bc its nuts. It's taco Tuesday though. 😁 I really liked this one!
Ahhhh I had come across a very good argument awhile back for this. I WISH I had save it. Obviously, the Bible is open to interpretation by man. Personally, I’m pretty sure we aren’t to follow those authorities leading us straight to hell. Snakes in the grass….
These are things I have wondered about for a long time. Things written about Jesus were written hundreds of years later (am I wrong?…no sarcasm in that). If I wrote quotes about something that happened hundreds of years ago…even if I lived that long and was quoting from memory, how accurate would the direct quotes, words, and stories be? Plus they would come through my own filters and way I see the world. For instance, I am quite sure I would write a very different narrative of the Covid years than other people in my family. Then I wonder about how much in the Bible has been changed to serve authoritarian regimes. Yet, often bible quotes come to mind or bible stories, that I find quite helpful. It seems to me that discerning the essence of things is key. I like your evolutionary take on things here Christopher. I had never thought of that. I will keep it in mind as well. I hope you didn’t get a lot of flack. I see you have 100 comments so I will be comment 101 😉❤️.
Romans talks about authority from “rulers”. We are self governed, WE are the rulers here. Therefore, we only need to heed our governing selves. Pretty simple, no? Follow the Ten Commandments and govern yourselves.
One thing that people fail to recognize is that the authorities that govern over us also have a responsibility to their subjects.
Romans 13:3-4 LSB
[3] For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of that authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; [4] for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword in vain, for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
Ok, so the authorities are a cause of fear for evil. So what happens when the authorities cease to do this, but rather become a cause for fear good behaviour (eg. What we witnessed explicitly during COVID hysteria)? It's our duty as Christians to disobey and continue to do good. Because the authorities do not define what is good and evil, but God does. If the authorities do evil, it is our duty to push for good. This is why slavery ended in the West. The state was promoting evil, and Christians pushed for good. And lo and behold, now people consider that good.
I can go further in depth on this subject, but that's the Coles notes on how I understand Romans 13.
We all have to make up our own mind as it relates to scripture. For me... this part was added by nefarious characters seeking to raise the power of the state and does not reflect the ministry of Christ. Like then, as now, real Christ- like actions would be a threat to power so they had to be handicapped. "The Kingdom of God us within you" by Leo Tolstoy is illuminating for me.
It’s not lost on me that those who cite Rom 13 in the current interpretation aren’t being prosecuted for treason like the early church, including Paul ands all the Apostles, so maybe the modern interpretation is based more on fear of prosecution than fear of the lord.
Thus, Rom 13 has always said:
*God is the true & final authority, but
*Don’t be stupid, Nero carries a heavy sword and will use it, so be kind-of compliant in the things you can be …
*Do real love to your neighbor and if that mashes you a traitor … keep doing it.
Thank you for this !!! In Eastern Orthodoxy the belief is that although Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and the Spirit was given the actual letter and literal wording was supplied by men who spoke and wrote from their understanding at that time. Just as Jesus clarifies the meaning of OT verses and prophecies so the Holy Spirit continues to elucidate for us Scripture, but not privately so this or that individual needs to for sure before they go acting on a “ voice” or “ vision” be assured by Church standards that it is in keeping with the tradition and teachings of the Church . Civil disobedience is clearly seen in the Bible.
I just wrote a personal interpretation of Romans 13, as I got tired of hearing others taking it out of context.
Benjamin Franklin famously suggested using the following motto to be used for the Seal of the United States of America.
“Disobedience to tyrants is obedience to God”. ~ Benjamin Franklin
When the governing authority ceases to do good, they cease to be an authority. He didn’t make this up. He got this from the early church fathers, e.g. St. Thomas Aquanis.
“Human law is law only by virtue of its accordance with right reason; and thus it is manifest that it flows from the eternal law. And in so far as it deviates from right reason it is called an unjust law; in such case it is no law at all, but rather a species of violence.” ~ St. Thomas Aquinas
Or to put it simply, “Unjust law is no law at all”
https://dukeofgood.site/romans-13-reevaluating-obedience-to-tyrannical-authorities/
Christopher, landmines, indeed. I will not tread on all this tinder, tonight. I will say, however, as a woman of God and follower of Jesus Christ, after spending 35 long years of sorrowful wandering away from my Christian roots, my own way certainly led into ditches and sloughs. Not fun, not profitable, not healthy, not remotely "sexy" or cool. I have learned the hard way, to simply sit down on the couch with God, pour out my soul and sorrows just as King David did in the Psalms and ASK for help. God is not a "thug" , He does not seek slaves, He does not want abject idiots. He leads, He washes, He chastens, He guides, He corrects, He forgives, He transforms raw and rebellious humans into His sons and daughters. Look at what Jesus Christ endured for all of us?? Romans all the way through is a difficult and intense book. Apostle Paul was a very blunt guy, trained to be a Pharisee and then had an encounter with Christ and was changed into the Apostle to the Gentiles, what a change only God could make. As a blunt Oregon girl (who lives in California), I came from extremely rowdy and rebellious roots, was agnostic and ran from God. Only His mercy brought me back, as I was headed for hell, no way around it. Grateful beyond measure to be back in the Household of God. I have no inerrant answers for all, but only to "sit down on the couch in your spirit and talk to God." Do this day by day by day and see what slowly begins to happen. It happened to me, questions are slowly-slowly-slowly beginning to be answered and I also have Eternity with Him and His Son and all the gang in Glory. I look forward to that day. Current perfection is not needed, only willingness to humble ourself and seek God. He won't hit you with a stick!
While I'm not an historian nor theologian, I know enough about religion and the Bible to unequivocally state a few things.
And let me add that I was raised Roman-Catholic, attended Parochial schools, and came from a very religious family.
1) Not one piece of the New Testament was written by an eye-witness to "Jesus'" life. Not surprising, since "Jesus" is a composite figure constructed out of the stories of various individuals to be the centerpiece of this religious text.
2) Out of the thousands of texts that 'could have' been included in the Bible, the ones that were included were cherry-picked to establish two things:
a) Jesus, the composite figure, was not an ordinary man, but was the 'Son of God'.
b) That the religious 'authorities' were chosen by God to rule over man using their interpretation of these texts.
3) The "Gospel of Matthew" is a forgery, having been discovered to be quite suitable for the previously mentioned purposes.
Now, one of the things that we are all addressing to as part of the Shift in Consciousness is the idea of 'Authority.' And I will also unequivocally state:
YOU ARE YOUR OWN AUTHORITY!!!
A cohesive, self-aware, uncompartmentalized individual is completely capable of determining what is and what is NOT best for them.
Mankind is not 'based.'
Mankind is not slumming it as opposed to so-called higher-dimensional beings.
People generally are afraid to be and express as themselves because they believe that without outside rules and authorities they will become stark-raving madmen and demons. This is because they don't trust their own instincts and have been taught that they cannot as self-empowerment is corrupting.
What we do not understand is that a cohesive, self-aware individual is automatically integral, meaning 'with integrity.'
At this point, people who believe otherwise of themselves still have a lot of work to do. They don't know themselves. They are afraid of themselves.
Let me also state that I do believe in a form of God. But it is not the God of our religious texts. There IS an energy at work that is the basis for all things, including us, and it is 'good.' Unfortunately, when people become self-aware enough to reject the religious aspects of our world, they often then replace religion with Science as the new religion, and lose sight of the aspect of our world - our lives as magical. Then life loses all meaning, and becomes a purely random set of circumstances.
So a belief in something bigger is not completely corrupted. It is calling us back to ourselves. Back to the Remembrance of ourselves as Essence, which is what we ARE -- Conscious Units of God-stuff.
This is what the Shift in Consciousness is.
It takes a lot of work to discover ourselves and free ourselves from our illusions. WE instituted this Shift because it's time. It WILL be glorious.
Excellent topic Chris. I agree with you.
Church and State has been a disaster for the people and within Church is Synagogue, Temple etc.
I have read the Bible 3 times cover to cover, which most priests and preachers will tell you not to do (because it exposes much of the plot), and I am a Heretic Gnostic. Decades ago I found that I don't accept most anything Paul wrote. Most Christians believe he is an Apostle-he was NOT. He was a hired Assassin, with his gang, by the Pharisees to murder Jesus and his Apostles. He later hijacked "True Christianity" with his Pharisee and certain High Roman Aristocracy.
Notice how he focuses on OUR MASTERS, PAYING TAXES, SLAVES TREMBLING BEFORE THEIR MASTERS, WOMEN BEING VIRTUAL SLAVES TO THEIR MASTER HUSBANDS. PAUL IS A SLAVE MASTER.
I later learned The Jefferson Bible, Thomas Jefferson's, he tore out everything Paul wrote. BTW: Jefferson's first Draft of The Declaration of Independence included freeing the slaves and making slavery illegal but the Rich Southern Congressmen and their Northern Partners would not accept it and Jefferson had to go with the watered down version to free America from British rule.
This transitional moment has caused me to immersed in Bonhoeffer and looking to those who struggled with the same thoughts some of us are having now… I subscribe to something called the Daily 15 scripture verse and low and behold- todays word was about transition: “Most of us are aware that the things we did in the last season no longer work, but we haven’t yet figured out what to do in the season we’re heading into.
We would do well to heed the Lord’s encouragement to Joshua, rather than trying to wiggle our way out of this uncomfortable transition. We must wake up and take seriously what is happening around us.
Evil forces are threatening to destroy our country, and we cannot afford to sit idly by as we try to ignore our discomfort and go on with “life as usual.”
There is no more life as usual—that’s the point. But God has great plans for us, just as He had for Joshua and the Israelites.
Israel had tried for years to cross into the Promised Land. After many years of walking around the desert with Moses, they still hadn’t gotten there. Their hearts weren’t ready for what God had for them. But when God raised up Joshua to lead them, Joshua became the power relationship that Israel needed to get them through the transition and into their promise.
When they got into agreement with the right guy, they were able to cross over into the Promised Land! This same principle also rings true for us—we cannot pass through transition and into the new season unless we have the right connection. When we are aligned with “the right guy,” the one who is our power relationship—in our case, Jesus—we are well able to cross over into what God has for us!”
America was created with the support and promise of God and lives dependent on God. I’ve felt for some time there are those among us being stripped and refined and an awakening is coming of a spiritual nature.
Being Gen X I saw the apostasy of the boomers in my life- selfish spoiled desires ruled them… I saw the disfunction yet solid based behaviors of the greatest generation who wanted their boomer children to have a world safe and full of prosperity. I now see millennials and Zs search and fill their void with everything but God. I believe God will move and burn out any indecision and unbelief for those generations only if others unite with Christ and seek him in repentance for our country and our own sins. We have been decadent for far too long. What matters will reveal itself and that takes suffering and humility of the church to accomplish. Prosperity doctrine churches and false ideologies can’t stand in time if transitions- they are not solid to build on and it will show.
Too many friends have destroyed families, too many in the church are asleep but there is always always a remnant who search and kneel. What we thought mattered America is going away and what really matters is coming.
We're all worthless sinners bro. Heathens but yet more because we have our higher thinking selves to attune to what makes us sick ie sin. I look at Romans as the when in Rome then you render to Ceaser. As you go further it talks about a new heaven and a new Earth. I have my own thoughts on this. You have you own conscience and believe what you will so please don't think I'm being preachy, but I think it's why Paul talks about putting on the full armor of God so that we are ready to meet whatever crosses our path come what may. I will say the passive aquesiance as a nation is why we got here. The contract between govt and people is broken. They nullified it. We the people need to collect with interest bc its nuts. It's taco Tuesday though. 😁 I really liked this one!
Ahhhh I had come across a very good argument awhile back for this. I WISH I had save it. Obviously, the Bible is open to interpretation by man. Personally, I’m pretty sure we aren’t to follow those authorities leading us straight to hell. Snakes in the grass….
The naïveté of Romans 13 is beyond belief.
These are things I have wondered about for a long time. Things written about Jesus were written hundreds of years later (am I wrong?…no sarcasm in that). If I wrote quotes about something that happened hundreds of years ago…even if I lived that long and was quoting from memory, how accurate would the direct quotes, words, and stories be? Plus they would come through my own filters and way I see the world. For instance, I am quite sure I would write a very different narrative of the Covid years than other people in my family. Then I wonder about how much in the Bible has been changed to serve authoritarian regimes. Yet, often bible quotes come to mind or bible stories, that I find quite helpful. It seems to me that discerning the essence of things is key. I like your evolutionary take on things here Christopher. I had never thought of that. I will keep it in mind as well. I hope you didn’t get a lot of flack. I see you have 100 comments so I will be comment 101 😉❤️.
Romans talks about authority from “rulers”. We are self governed, WE are the rulers here. Therefore, we only need to heed our governing selves. Pretty simple, no? Follow the Ten Commandments and govern yourselves.
Romans 13 still applies.
One thing that people fail to recognize is that the authorities that govern over us also have a responsibility to their subjects.
Romans 13:3-4 LSB
[3] For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of that authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; [4] for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword in vain, for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.
Ok, so the authorities are a cause of fear for evil. So what happens when the authorities cease to do this, but rather become a cause for fear good behaviour (eg. What we witnessed explicitly during COVID hysteria)? It's our duty as Christians to disobey and continue to do good. Because the authorities do not define what is good and evil, but God does. If the authorities do evil, it is our duty to push for good. This is why slavery ended in the West. The state was promoting evil, and Christians pushed for good. And lo and behold, now people consider that good.
I can go further in depth on this subject, but that's the Coles notes on how I understand Romans 13.
Didn’t they kill that Jesus guy for not “going along to get along”?!?!
And
History is written by the victors.
👻❤️👻
We all have to make up our own mind as it relates to scripture. For me... this part was added by nefarious characters seeking to raise the power of the state and does not reflect the ministry of Christ. Like then, as now, real Christ- like actions would be a threat to power so they had to be handicapped. "The Kingdom of God us within you" by Leo Tolstoy is illuminating for me.
It’s not lost on me that those who cite Rom 13 in the current interpretation aren’t being prosecuted for treason like the early church, including Paul ands all the Apostles, so maybe the modern interpretation is based more on fear of prosecution than fear of the lord.
Thus, Rom 13 has always said:
*God is the true & final authority, but
*Don’t be stupid, Nero carries a heavy sword and will use it, so be kind-of compliant in the things you can be …
*Do real love to your neighbor and if that mashes you a traitor … keep doing it.
If you really want a good answer to this question: https://biblevisionintl.wordpress.com/?s=Romans+13&submit=Search
But will you believe you've been fooled?
Thank you for this !!! In Eastern Orthodoxy the belief is that although Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and the Spirit was given the actual letter and literal wording was supplied by men who spoke and wrote from their understanding at that time. Just as Jesus clarifies the meaning of OT verses and prophecies so the Holy Spirit continues to elucidate for us Scripture, but not privately so this or that individual needs to for sure before they go acting on a “ voice” or “ vision” be assured by Church standards that it is in keeping with the tradition and teachings of the Church . Civil disobedience is clearly seen in the Bible.