Although unclaimed isn’t Marie Byrd Land controlled by the Antarctic Treaty System? I think only citizens of Moldova can enter without a permit, because they didn’t sign the treaty. Why do the get to be the self-appointed gatekeepers? Extending that ownership to space?!!
To step foot anywhere on the continent of aunt hour to cook including Marie Byrd Land, unless you apply for a permit. Most often your permit is not approved. There is a lot of red tape of course. What’s behind the ice wall? And of course, now they can control space as well.
This is so discouraging because it is so true. Once, we looked into off-the-grid housing. We saw homes built with old tires. Then, we found out the government actually goes into these places where no one is bothering them or asking them for anything, and forces them out. They use all manner of excuses. Not up to code. You must drink our water. You must use our electricity. And on and on. They arrested one family! There are actually miles and miles of empty property in the US, but someone has laid claim to it. And, the uber rich are buying it up. Makes me sick.
I am glad you brought this up Christopher, I have been pondering how these self appointed archons would make claims to planets for years. You are absolutely right in saying they will TRY to do it. No doubt.
I suppose we would have to define what we mean by "a ways" off. I think decades, not centuries, certainly.
And as to why, I think the reasons is that it's not practical to colonize exoplanets, etc. yet, so they might as well continue the pretense of being noble benefactors of the species rather than the criminal gangs that they actually are. No need to upset the rubes…yet.
There are a lot of data out there about space. I have not personally been there, nor do I have the technology to confirm or refute the claims of scientists, observers, and explorers about space going back over the last few centuries. There are a lot of things that each of us as individuals does not have direct experience of, and we choose to accept the claims of others. Space, for me, is one of those. But I understand that others feel/think/believe/contend differently. (I really and truly do not care what anyone else believes about anything, so long as they do not use force to impose their ideas on me, or get a third-party [a.k.a. government] to impose the force for them.)
Some of my thoughts on this topic can be read in this short exchange:
Lots of good observations here. Because this topic is something I browse and don't choose to invest enough time in to offer feedback of much significance, I'll offer one small question / challenge with the purpose of refining your assertions... In your footnote, you mention that it wouldn't make sense that once a piece of land is claimed we require the owner to continually dig up the land or cut down the trees to maintain ownership. They should just own it after they've put in the work to make it theirs.
Sure... somewhat. But not forever. I don't think someone (and their descendants) should just own land forever because they did that work once. Eventually, after some reasonable amount of time, I think the claim should lapse. One 30 year generation? 75 years, like copyright? (ha!)
If you work the land and then move on, but want to keep it in case your children or grandchildren need it... maybe that makes sense. Maybe. If you work the land and need to be absent for a while before coming back to retire on it, sure. But "acquiring" land that you never use, that you just amass as "wealth"? Not sure that fits natural law. Seems like the use of the land should continue in some way (at least after/during some reasonable time period) to keep the ownership active.
I think this is where the Lockean Proviso comes in. Ownership is fine so long as there is "enough and as good" in kind for others. So I think we would have to identify circumstances in which the Proviso is being violated.
For example, I have a VERY rural piece of land. For now, yes, I am holding it, keeping it clean, but not doing much else with it. But my ownership of that land is not preventing anyone else from having land. It is not the last stand of ponderosa pines in the world, or the last piece of timberland, or anywhere close to that. Anyone else who wants land can buy some.
Now, if you want to find a culprit who is a bigger offender in this regard, look to the Bureau of Land Management and the millions of acres they are holding and doing nothing with. Distribute that before looking to private landowners.
I get your point, and it is an interesting query that I will roll around. But at the moment, I do not see any moral reason to say that I shouldn't be allowed to hand this down to my great grandchildren.
The only alternative is to seize it from me by force. By government force, or some other kind. So what would be the justification of that? Especially (though not exclusively) because it's clearly not violating the Proviso.
Ah! That proviso makes sense. Thanks for the clarification, and your patience with someone who is interested but not as versed as some in this whole dialogue.
Related question: What terms do you use to differentiate "natural law" from, say, a 'might makes right' sort of acquisition and ownership? It seems very natural (historically) that people took land from each other when the current owner didn't have the ability to defend it. Isn't that "natural" to human nature? This is mostly a "what labels are you using" question, not a challenge to the "any use of coercive force on another is wrong" premise.
I get it. It is an excellent and legit question. The answer is pretty simple. There are two strategies in this world for getting what we want. For surviving and thriving. Those two strategies are coercion and persuasion. (Take or make. Steal or trade. Etc.) BOTH are natural, in that both are available strategies deployed by creatures of the natural world.
Natural law, though, is a set of moral conclusions drawn from natural facts, conclusions that demonstrate that persuasion is the only morally justified strategy, and is (especially for humans) the far more beneficial one.
But government like any armed thus will just kill you and take your property. And no prison can be built large enough in which to imprison a whole government. And to sentence a government to death one needs to be a larger, more heavily armed government. Defending against nuclear power in just plain MADness. In order to become MAD you have to be incredibly rich. And if you are able to acquire mutual assured destruction, you have to be able to unleash it--or hire someone capable of unleashing it. And if you have to spend all of your incredible wealth, how will you keep them hired?
Oh, I know. You could use a hydrogen bomb to propel your spacecraft out of reach of anyone else. Yes let's blow ourselves up. We're MAD after all.
Lots of challenges to overcome. Then again, just a couple of years before the Berlin Wall came down, the Ceaucescus were shot, and the USSR fell, most people would have laughed if you had told them those events were right around the corner. Things change.
I do not want to create the wheel again. I own and use "ARRR" Matey, "WOW" cause I am rather anti-governments and they offer world class privacy and MEME's Fuck the governments. Fuck the surveillance state. Fuck the incessant taxation's.
I was not so much suggesting that you reinvent the wheel. I was more hoping to hear if you understood how that credit-based currency they are describing is supposed to work. 'Cause I don't fully get it yet.
Excellent and informative. Though I am not a big fan of phrases like "the common good " and "the interest of society as a whole," as they tend to lead to collectivism and the effacement of the individual. But otherwise, excellent.
It is a discussion that is worth all our views. I am 100% de-banked and am my own bank currently and give my self a "C" rating since am generous :) Stillnhave 5 fiat bank accounts for everyday needs. Privacy coins 100% with some silver coins, which will change with the next Alt-coin run, currently just starting.
WOW perhaps first. It could make a first run. I own both. I hope to be buying the rest of my ARRR possition soon. I would also like more WOW at these levels. Both are dirt cheap.
"XMR" is rising. The world's largest privacy coin now over $200 per coin. Fuck the governments. Fuck the surveillance state. Fuck the incessant taxation's.
The world has experienced this type of behavior during the second half of the 1800’s when Europeans felt they owned the continent of Africa. The 1884 Berlin Conference allowed Western Europe to divide Africa into properties for their respective countries (except for the Congo which was personally owned by King Leopold of Belgium).
Right, and where did that conference get the right to say that? The point of a gun, hidden behind the skirts of a bunch of dudes having tea, pretending what they were doing was “legal.”
Prison Planet was very accurate though I never liked AJ and believe he is a CIA asset.
I find your writing here so apt and I thank you for it:
"In case my disdain has not fully come through, allow me to make it clearer. Governments are disgusting criminal enterprises, and the people who work for them ought to be ashamed of themselves. That is as toned-down a statement on the subject as I can possibly make.
Make no mistake: this is what governments do. They claim everything as their property. They claim your property as their property. In essence, they claim you as their property. Government is the worst institution ever to be extruded from the twisted mind of man. Nothing is safe from their grubby little hands.
It's so hard to know for sure who is controlled oppo, intel assets, etc. So I don't even speculate, for the most part. I just try to keep my mind simultaneously open and shut to everything 😆
the discussions have been ongoing for decades with numerous treaties & everybody having a space force branch. mining expeditions planned and actively worked to achieve. while one nation cannot own it is fair game for private enterprise. most say it is "commons" & the US stance has been "no". the question of "governance" has been ongoing in the UN. as all exploration & opening up has been the realm of private enterprise for aeons i say less than 20 yrs..2 decades.
i am a rube & sick of playing catchup. i don't remember who said it...but basically we will spend so much time trying to figure out what has happened & in the meantime they advance & we will be decades behind what is actually happening...still trying to figure out WTH.
agree. i get frustrated when discussions begin 20 yrs later as new, future, possible, hypothesis when in reality well advanced & developed. it about made me crazy when in 2022 articles were written detailing the testing of the fleet of 50 driverless semis running between tuscon & phoenix. then the article about the fleet in texas running. already functioning, working. then nationwide news says coming in the future...driverless trucks. like not yet, like beginning, developing tech, beginning testing, no mention at all there are fleets successful & running. hello?? no wonder people are insane. the fleets are already running.
and people who remember are left like wtf this is old news, huh?
space ownership is already technically a thing & open season on resources...how will it be governed is the question...who will be overseer, the boss
And as to the boss question, that is just it. Humankind must say, loud and clear, that space is a new frontier. We have been waiting for a new frontier to open up, and they mustn’t rob us of that.
They can keep the space for now. I am more concerned about the ground I am standing upon. Until then, Captain Kirk can take on the space battles and I'll take the likes of Benjamin Martin for the earthy battles along with William Wallace for good measure. But not Trump or any politician.
I lean toward the belief that the Apollo Program of the late 60s and early 70s was largely engaged in fakery. But I do not believe that space itself is fake.
As far as the government's space program—of course it's a waste. Government itself is a waste.
Nor does Antartica, which they've taken upon themselves to own and control. Makes you wonder? 🧐
Yes. Nor is any scrap of planet Earth. ALL their ownership claims are morally fraudulent criminal enterprise.
It does make me wonder, yes, but then again, even if there weren't anything freaky in Antarctica, they would still claim it.
What makes me wonder is why they HAVEN'T claimed Marie Byrd Land. What the heck is there?
Although unclaimed isn’t Marie Byrd Land controlled by the Antarctic Treaty System? I think only citizens of Moldova can enter without a permit, because they didn’t sign the treaty. Why do the get to be the self-appointed gatekeepers? Extending that ownership to space?!!
I don't know much about that treaty. But yeah, why do they get to be the self-appointed gatekeepers of ANYTHING?
Their only answer, ultimately, is to stick a gun in your face. They don't have anything else but that a meaningless platitudes.
To step foot anywhere on the continent of aunt hour to cook including Marie Byrd Land, unless you apply for a permit. Most often your permit is not approved. There is a lot of red tape of course. What’s behind the ice wall? And of course, now they can control space as well.
I think we should put together a group to take over the Moon as an anarchist colony and we could call it "Anarchtica" 😉
🤣🤣🤣 All we need is a Stanley Kubrick set 😃🌙🌝
https://freedom-gpt-wiki.vercel.app/wiki/antarctic-treaty
Mother, May I? Just to go there. All controlled.
I'd like to claim a piece of Moon, just in case it's made of cheese after all.
A rat must have his cheese!
Here ya go
https://lunarregistry.com/buy-moon-land
Or if Mars is more your thing (only $34.99 per acre! bargain!)
https://lunarembassy.com/product/buy-land-on-mars/
This is so discouraging because it is so true. Once, we looked into off-the-grid housing. We saw homes built with old tires. Then, we found out the government actually goes into these places where no one is bothering them or asking them for anything, and forces them out. They use all manner of excuses. Not up to code. You must drink our water. You must use our electricity. And on and on. They arrested one family! There are actually miles and miles of empty property in the US, but someone has laid claim to it. And, the uber rich are buying it up. Makes me sick.
We have to do something about it!
I am glad you brought this up Christopher, I have been pondering how these self appointed archons would make claims to planets for years. You are absolutely right in saying they will TRY to do it. No doubt.
Yep. It's a ways off. But our children's children will face this. So we need to start laying the groundwork NOW.
i'm curious as to why you think this is a way off?
I suppose we would have to define what we mean by "a ways" off. I think decades, not centuries, certainly.
And as to why, I think the reasons is that it's not practical to colonize exoplanets, etc. yet, so they might as well continue the pretense of being noble benefactors of the species rather than the criminal gangs that they actually are. No need to upset the rubes…yet.
Space does not exist.
I do not believe that, but I do understand why people have come to feel so.
Two words you used there. Believe and feelings.
Neither are facts, beliefs and feelings are learnt based off what has been taught.
Science woukd ask us to 'Provide evidence to support your cliam'?
Can you do this beyond any reasonable doubt?
With respect.
Thank you for the respect. I respond in kind.
There are a lot of data out there about space. I have not personally been there, nor do I have the technology to confirm or refute the claims of scientists, observers, and explorers about space going back over the last few centuries. There are a lot of things that each of us as individuals does not have direct experience of, and we choose to accept the claims of others. Space, for me, is one of those. But I understand that others feel/think/believe/contend differently. (I really and truly do not care what anyone else believes about anything, so long as they do not use force to impose their ideas on me, or get a third-party [a.k.a. government] to impose the force for them.)
Some of my thoughts on this topic can be read in this short exchange:
https://christophercook.substack.com/p/babe-theory-political-movements-protest-music/comment/86890631
Lots of good observations here. Because this topic is something I browse and don't choose to invest enough time in to offer feedback of much significance, I'll offer one small question / challenge with the purpose of refining your assertions... In your footnote, you mention that it wouldn't make sense that once a piece of land is claimed we require the owner to continually dig up the land or cut down the trees to maintain ownership. They should just own it after they've put in the work to make it theirs.
Sure... somewhat. But not forever. I don't think someone (and their descendants) should just own land forever because they did that work once. Eventually, after some reasonable amount of time, I think the claim should lapse. One 30 year generation? 75 years, like copyright? (ha!)
If you work the land and then move on, but want to keep it in case your children or grandchildren need it... maybe that makes sense. Maybe. If you work the land and need to be absent for a while before coming back to retire on it, sure. But "acquiring" land that you never use, that you just amass as "wealth"? Not sure that fits natural law. Seems like the use of the land should continue in some way (at least after/during some reasonable time period) to keep the ownership active.
I think this is where the Lockean Proviso comes in. Ownership is fine so long as there is "enough and as good" in kind for others. So I think we would have to identify circumstances in which the Proviso is being violated.
For example, I have a VERY rural piece of land. For now, yes, I am holding it, keeping it clean, but not doing much else with it. But my ownership of that land is not preventing anyone else from having land. It is not the last stand of ponderosa pines in the world, or the last piece of timberland, or anywhere close to that. Anyone else who wants land can buy some.
Now, if you want to find a culprit who is a bigger offender in this regard, look to the Bureau of Land Management and the millions of acres they are holding and doing nothing with. Distribute that before looking to private landowners.
I get your point, and it is an interesting query that I will roll around. But at the moment, I do not see any moral reason to say that I shouldn't be allowed to hand this down to my great grandchildren.
The only alternative is to seize it from me by force. By government force, or some other kind. So what would be the justification of that? Especially (though not exclusively) because it's clearly not violating the Proviso.
Ah! That proviso makes sense. Thanks for the clarification, and your patience with someone who is interested but not as versed as some in this whole dialogue.
Thank you for the support and interest. I am here to serve, if I can.
Related question: What terms do you use to differentiate "natural law" from, say, a 'might makes right' sort of acquisition and ownership? It seems very natural (historically) that people took land from each other when the current owner didn't have the ability to defend it. Isn't that "natural" to human nature? This is mostly a "what labels are you using" question, not a challenge to the "any use of coercive force on another is wrong" premise.
I get it. It is an excellent and legit question. The answer is pretty simple. There are two strategies in this world for getting what we want. For surviving and thriving. Those two strategies are coercion and persuasion. (Take or make. Steal or trade. Etc.) BOTH are natural, in that both are available strategies deployed by creatures of the natural world.
Natural law, though, is a set of moral conclusions drawn from natural facts, conclusions that demonstrate that persuasion is the only morally justified strategy, and is (especially for humans) the far more beneficial one.
But government like any armed thus will just kill you and take your property. And no prison can be built large enough in which to imprison a whole government. And to sentence a government to death one needs to be a larger, more heavily armed government. Defending against nuclear power in just plain MADness. In order to become MAD you have to be incredibly rich. And if you are able to acquire mutual assured destruction, you have to be able to unleash it--or hire someone capable of unleashing it. And if you have to spend all of your incredible wealth, how will you keep them hired?
Oh, I know. You could use a hydrogen bomb to propel your spacecraft out of reach of anyone else. Yes let's blow ourselves up. We're MAD after all.
Lots of challenges to overcome. Then again, just a couple of years before the Berlin Wall came down, the Ceaucescus were shot, and the USSR fell, most people would have laughed if you had told them those events were right around the corner. Things change.
Excellent summary of the problems with money
https://emanuelprez.substack.com/p/excellent-summary-of-the-problems?publication_id=885592&post_id=154704186&isFreemail=true&r=1egrlc&triedRedirect=true
All War is Evil. No More War.
Stop Paying these Monsters Income Taxes
Stop Paying for WAR.
I am curious what you think of this: https://www.thebernician.net/credit-based-currency-by-the-people-for-the-people-of-the-people/
I do not want to create the wheel again. I own and use "ARRR" Matey, "WOW" cause I am rather anti-governments and they offer world class privacy and MEME's Fuck the governments. Fuck the surveillance state. Fuck the incessant taxation's.
https://piratechain.com/
https://wownero.org/
I can lead a horse to water but it's up to the horse to drink. ARRR below 20 cents; WOW at 10 cents.
I will check those out!
I was not so much suggesting that you reinvent the wheel. I was more hoping to hear if you understood how that credit-based currency they are describing is supposed to work. 'Cause I don't fully get it yet.
No need we have "ARRR" and it just a currency that is impossible to see or trace.
Excellent and informative. Though I am not a big fan of phrases like "the common good " and "the interest of society as a whole," as they tend to lead to collectivism and the effacement of the individual. But otherwise, excellent.
It is a discussion that is worth all our views. I am 100% de-banked and am my own bank currently and give my self a "C" rating since am generous :) Stillnhave 5 fiat bank accounts for everyday needs. Privacy coins 100% with some silver coins, which will change with the next Alt-coin run, currently just starting.
which one do you think is starting its run?
WOW perhaps first. It could make a first run. I own both. I hope to be buying the rest of my ARRR possition soon. I would also like more WOW at these levels. Both are dirt cheap.
Interesting. Still not accepted too widely, but maybe someday?
You miss my point. Regardless I will be buying more ARRR & WOW soon.
"XMR" is rising. The world's largest privacy coin now over $200 per coin. Fuck the governments. Fuck the surveillance state. Fuck the incessant taxation's.
Imagine trying to colonize a spacial dimension and orientation that is beyond 3D pattern thinking. lol
The scope of my plans is ambitious, but perhaps not quite that ambitious.
You should read the Outer Space Treaty and the Moon Treaty.
I discuss the topic here
https://open.substack.com/pub/l5news/p/moon-claims
Done. Those treaties are every bit as lame as one would expect.
The world has experienced this type of behavior during the second half of the 1800’s when Europeans felt they owned the continent of Africa. The 1884 Berlin Conference allowed Western Europe to divide Africa into properties for their respective countries (except for the Congo which was personally owned by King Leopold of Belgium).
Right, and where did that conference get the right to say that? The point of a gun, hidden behind the skirts of a bunch of dudes having tea, pretending what they were doing was “legal.”
Very Powerful Christopher!
Prison Planet was very accurate though I never liked AJ and believe he is a CIA asset.
I find your writing here so apt and I thank you for it:
"In case my disdain has not fully come through, allow me to make it clearer. Governments are disgusting criminal enterprises, and the people who work for them ought to be ashamed of themselves. That is as toned-down a statement on the subject as I can possibly make.
Make no mistake: this is what governments do. They claim everything as their property. They claim your property as their property. In essence, they claim you as their property. Government is the worst institution ever to be extruded from the twisted mind of man. Nothing is safe from their grubby little hands.
Including space…"
Thanks, AV.
It's so hard to know for sure who is controlled oppo, intel assets, etc. So I don't even speculate, for the most part. I just try to keep my mind simultaneously open and shut to everything 😆
I understand and appreciate that. Though it is factual with AJ.
sigh.
the discussions have been ongoing for decades with numerous treaties & everybody having a space force branch. mining expeditions planned and actively worked to achieve. while one nation cannot own it is fair game for private enterprise. most say it is "commons" & the US stance has been "no". the question of "governance" has been ongoing in the UN. as all exploration & opening up has been the realm of private enterprise for aeons i say less than 20 yrs..2 decades.
i am a rube & sick of playing catchup. i don't remember who said it...but basically we will spend so much time trying to figure out what has happened & in the meantime they advance & we will be decades behind what is actually happening...still trying to figure out WTH.
it is already
All the more reason to start planting this seed ASAP!
agree. i get frustrated when discussions begin 20 yrs later as new, future, possible, hypothesis when in reality well advanced & developed. it about made me crazy when in 2022 articles were written detailing the testing of the fleet of 50 driverless semis running between tuscon & phoenix. then the article about the fleet in texas running. already functioning, working. then nationwide news says coming in the future...driverless trucks. like not yet, like beginning, developing tech, beginning testing, no mention at all there are fleets successful & running. hello?? no wonder people are insane. the fleets are already running.
and people who remember are left like wtf this is old news, huh?
space ownership is already technically a thing & open season on resources...how will it be governed is the question...who will be overseer, the boss
I feel your frustration.
And as to the boss question, that is just it. Humankind must say, loud and clear, that space is a new frontier. We have been waiting for a new frontier to open up, and they mustn’t rob us of that.
They can keep the space for now. I am more concerned about the ground I am standing upon. Until then, Captain Kirk can take on the space battles and I'll take the likes of Benjamin Martin for the earthy battles along with William Wallace for good measure. But not Trump or any politician.
This is a small part of the most long-term aspect of a vision. But it is a necessary one, as I will try to explain in the next installment.
We're wasting a ludicrous amount of "resources" on useless projects, the space program is a huge dump down the drain.
Also, space is fake and ghey.
LOL.
I lean toward the belief that the Apollo Program of the late 60s and early 70s was largely engaged in fakery. But I do not believe that space itself is fake.
As far as the government's space program—of course it's a waste. Government itself is a waste.
Government is indeed a waste and inhumane.